Ciao Portia, your article made me think of something: maybe Italians’ obsession with posto fisso is a bit like their obsession with owning a house. If your grandparents had to migrate, leaving everything behind (which, let’s be honest… wasn’t much), it makes sense that the following generations would crave something solid. Probably it was a desire passed down from their parents.
But today, I feel like that’s shifting. Younger generations seem less attached to the idea of stability, maybe because they grew up with no real expectation of it.
I grew up believing that hard work and commitment (often at the expense of your personal life) would eventually reward me with some “stability.” But today there’s a general sense of mistrust in what the future holds.
People often say the new generation is lazy or dependent on their parents. Honestly, I don’t claim to fully understand their motivations, fears, or desires, but I sometimes envy how they enjoy life with far less than I seem to need to feel okay. Maybe I even admire their refusal to trade everything for the illusion of security.
Ciao Historia Minuta, mille grazie and yes, you make an excellent point here. It's like those people who – having lived through WW2 – give their children and grandchildren too much food, because they know how it feels to be starving. You want to hold on to something "solid."
I've always been a freelancer – let's say it was a forced choice, since no one would hire me – so I've never felt secure, especially in these last couple of years, and it becomes tiresome in the end.
The young generation is given a bad rap, and it's unfair to them, they inherited an empty pantry. I hope things will turn out good for them. Chi vivrà, vedrà.
This is a profoundly well written essay Portia, well done. I have always maintained that Italy is the most creative country in Europe and Holland the most intelligent.
Please keep the promise to build on this insightful piece of writing. As lover of both of these parts of Europe you bring both these special parts to life and their recent histories. The 'compare and contrast' are very appealing. I look forward to the next instalment…. Tim (from a country that was a former member of the great European Club:)
Thanks, Tim, for your kind words! My promise was for a totally different piece, but now you're giving me ideas for a 'compare and contrast' series, you're a volcano of creative tips, thank you again, and watch this space.
I so want to welcome the UK back in the EU! We should stick together, while the US is going through their nasty phase. 'United We Stand' – no truer words have ever been spoken. And thanks for the restack! <3
This was fascinating -- I was familiar with some of the cultural points you explore, but not all. The French too have been quite fond of stable jobs, but I don't think it runs as deep or that there was so much corruption in handing them out. That all is changing to some extent with the under-40 generation.
Thank you, Betty. I think it's different in France, in that the French seem to have a strong civic culture, due to their history as one of the world's great powers in the past. Italy was divided in many small states, governed by different foreign countries, and our sense of unity isn't there. Unless there's an international soccer match, then they're all ardent patriots!
Indeed! I studied a lot of French literature at university in the States, but oddly never took a French history class. Now after living here for 35 years, I’m trying to catch up a bit, but it’s a long haul.
Portia, what an interesting approach to two countries. I visited both. Italy was my first capitalistic country. I loved it because I came to the country already loving Italian art, architecture, literature, and movies. On a serious note, you are right. Nepotism, instability are serious problems for the country. Holland, with their glorious tolerance, I didn't like at all. AGAIN, AS A TOURIST. Amsterdam celebrated the Queen's birthday. The men drank so much beer(?) they obscenely pissed into the city canals, despite the presence of the public. Waiting for your novella! You offered a very serious idea for the analysis of the future of any country.
Огромное спасибо, Лариса! Most Dutch people aren't happy with that kind of rude behavior, but it's something that happens at Queen's Day (now it's King's Day), it's like beer, and other stronger drinks, make them lose all good sense.
Didn't Amsterdam remind you of Leningrad? It's very different, of course, but czar Piotr took inspiration from there for his city on the water.
I remember seeing a photo of the Zuiderzee when I was a kid, an impossibly long road heading straight toward the horizon. It looked so alien it made a lasting impression on me.
So far as I understand neither country is similar to the US system, although .... Are we a galloping capitalist society driven by greed, and an education system that pumps out engineers and scientists and entrepreneurs ? Where a small amount of people with the brain power drive the system. It's definitely complex, where in the east coast old boy networks of Ivy Leaguers go back generations and still provide sinecure via nepotism. Did you know that many of the White House insiders and cabinet people in our new "Populist" government are Ivy League? Geography may be our main source of stability, though we had our Civil War, and the issues from that time are with us still. What's coming remains to be seen. so looking forward to reading your fiction Portia. Don't keep us waiting long.
Of course they're Ivy Leaguers, privileged scumbags. But there's still a warm sparkle of goodness in American society, don't let it fizzle out! Keep carrying the light.
Thanks for your encouragement, Tod, but don't keep your expectations too high. What if it's a damp squib?
Portia, a tale from different sides. Flipped over easy and most nourishing. Gelato melts into holanddaise saucy food with much to many-calories . Yet times do change. The rise of tide is held at bay for now. Vesuvius may not blow its top, but I am not holding my breath. The world changes day by day. Nights by flashlights are the worst for reading your next flood of fleets that once cruised the world with dominating power.
Richard, you spin a wondrous tale as usual. Thank you, even if I'm a bit worried now about Vesuvius blowing up, and floods. Etna and the other Sicilian volcanoes are still quite active.
I love a solid bit of cultural exegesis, Portia - and here we get two. Dank u vell. <3
But I am mortified to learn that, as a *libera professionista,* Italians view me as a "reckless dimwit, heading down the inevitable road to starvation."
Is it really true? Because if a *posto fisso* is a pipe dream for an Italian, it's even more impossible for a non-Italian in Italy.
On the other hand, my freelance income, while not strictly under my control, approximates a full-time Italian monthly stipendio, so I am overall content with that.
It's still far less than my American income in some years ... but then I'm here, and all in on an Italian quality of life, for which there is absoluately no stateside comparison.
I do feel truly sorry for all the miserably employed Italians who do not change jobs. It's a lot like the US housing market though - once you cash out, you can never get back in again.
You're giving me cravings for strong Dutch kaffee with a plate of kaasebrod.
Hi Monica, you're welcome, thank you for this lovely comment!
Don't be mortified, many people admire, and some may envy your status of libera professionista. But I remember the chorus of "Get yourself a posto fisso!", when I was young. And though I've been going through a rough patch for a couple of years now, I relish being a freelancer.
If you're content with your job and your income, there's really no need to change. Enjoy your life in Florence, while I make a toast to you, with a Dutch coffee and a hefty slice of appeltaart met slagroom.
I enjoyed this. Thank you. About the concept of 'amoral familism,' I remember reading the book 'Who Prospers?' decades ago, an analysis by a retired U.S. diplomat who had had posts in countries all over the globe. Among other things, he asserted that Central and especially South America would never prosper because of amoral familism, although I don't think he used that term.
My younger daughter has lived in Holland for about six years, and I'm the grandparent of two newish people with dual Dutch and USian citizenship. It's been very interesting getting my daughter's impressions of Dutch culture (and seeing how her impressions change over time), and likewise my son in law's impressions of American culture (if indeed there is such a thing).
Thank you, John. Maybe the author used a different term, but you recognized the concept. 'Amoral familism' and the lack of civic culture have their roots in the fact that almost all 20 Italian regions were governed by foreigners for centuries on end, whom Italians didn't trust, and actually tried to sabotage in every way they could. Unfortunately, these family-centered and passive-aggressive behaviors still exist.
Dutch culture has something in common with the American one: Calvinism, for instance, or the strong entrepreneurial spirit, there's even a Bible belt here! But, to me, the Dutch are more similar to the Germans and Scandinavians.
'American culture' is not monolithic. The population of the USA is ~340M. There are subcultures here that are more populous than Holland and more different from each other than Dutch is from Italian. A proper comparison is not 'American culture vs Dutch culture,' but something more like 'Dutch culture vs Southern California culture' or 'Dutch culture vs Mexican-American culture.'
Right, I remember an American couple from Michigan I'd met in Amsterdam, their daughter went to school with mine. The had lived previously in Montana and then in Poland, and they said that the bigger cultural shock was Montana, much more than Europe. How weird is that?
I grew up on a small farm in rapidly suburbanizing New Jersey, then went to high school in NYC. The change from milking the cow before school to riding the subways of Manhattan at age 13 was a pretty big shock. Then I went to a small liberal arts college in upstate New York, and that was a big (and delightful) change from NYC. Then I lived in a small village in Senegal for 2 years, and that, obviously, was a big change. And then I went to grad school at Purdue University in Indiana.
In some ways Purdue was the biggest culture shock of all of them all. Because unlike the (Black, mostly Muslim) people I lived among in Senegal, who I expected to be different, the 25,000 Purdue undergrads looked pretty much like the kids I had gone to college with. They looked like me. I expected their college experience to be similar in many ways to my own.
But in many ways it wasn't because culturally they were still living in the 1950's. They willingly put themselves in boxes; they followed the rules. "Boys from XZY fraternity only date girls from ABC sorority." "Why?" "Because that's the way it is." "What if a boy doesn't feel like joining a fraternity?" "That is unthinkable." It was as if the 60's had never even happened. It was Twilight Zone.
(We graduate students, thank heavens, were not like that. We were from all over the place (many U.S. states and 6 continents) and didn't care for any of the undergrad silliness.)
Curioser and curioser... In your case, John, all those changes of scenery have produced a very fine, bright, empathetic, artistic, and open-minded gentleman like you.
Ciao Portia, your article made me think of something: maybe Italians’ obsession with posto fisso is a bit like their obsession with owning a house. If your grandparents had to migrate, leaving everything behind (which, let’s be honest… wasn’t much), it makes sense that the following generations would crave something solid. Probably it was a desire passed down from their parents.
But today, I feel like that’s shifting. Younger generations seem less attached to the idea of stability, maybe because they grew up with no real expectation of it.
I grew up believing that hard work and commitment (often at the expense of your personal life) would eventually reward me with some “stability.” But today there’s a general sense of mistrust in what the future holds.
People often say the new generation is lazy or dependent on their parents. Honestly, I don’t claim to fully understand their motivations, fears, or desires, but I sometimes envy how they enjoy life with far less than I seem to need to feel okay. Maybe I even admire their refusal to trade everything for the illusion of security.
Ciao Historia Minuta, mille grazie and yes, you make an excellent point here. It's like those people who – having lived through WW2 – give their children and grandchildren too much food, because they know how it feels to be starving. You want to hold on to something "solid."
I've always been a freelancer – let's say it was a forced choice, since no one would hire me – so I've never felt secure, especially in these last couple of years, and it becomes tiresome in the end.
The young generation is given a bad rap, and it's unfair to them, they inherited an empty pantry. I hope things will turn out good for them. Chi vivrà, vedrà.
This is a profoundly well written essay Portia, well done. I have always maintained that Italy is the most creative country in Europe and Holland the most intelligent.
Thank you so much, Steve! I think creativity and intelligence meet often in the best from the UK, just like your good self.
Gosh, and Golly ( Englishman disappears stage left in a cloud of happiness, embarrassment and confusion)
Don't be embarrassed, Steve, own it, for goodness' sake! Take a leaf out of our 'murican friends' book, no, not the orange one's though. ;-)
One is frightfully British don'tcha know.
Don'tcha I know it!
Please keep the promise to build on this insightful piece of writing. As lover of both of these parts of Europe you bring both these special parts to life and their recent histories. The 'compare and contrast' are very appealing. I look forward to the next instalment…. Tim (from a country that was a former member of the great European Club:)
Thanks, Tim, for your kind words! My promise was for a totally different piece, but now you're giving me ideas for a 'compare and contrast' series, you're a volcano of creative tips, thank you again, and watch this space.
I so want to welcome the UK back in the EU! We should stick together, while the US is going through their nasty phase. 'United We Stand' – no truer words have ever been spoken. And thanks for the restack! <3
This was fascinating -- I was familiar with some of the cultural points you explore, but not all. The French too have been quite fond of stable jobs, but I don't think it runs as deep or that there was so much corruption in handing them out. That all is changing to some extent with the under-40 generation.
Thank you, Betty. I think it's different in France, in that the French seem to have a strong civic culture, due to their history as one of the world's great powers in the past. Italy was divided in many small states, governed by different foreign countries, and our sense of unity isn't there. Unless there's an international soccer match, then they're all ardent patriots!
Good point, I didn't think about that. I'd like to learn more about Italy's history, but at the moment I'm focusing on France!
France is a universe in itself, you'll need several lifetimes to explore it all!
Indeed! I studied a lot of French literature at university in the States, but oddly never took a French history class. Now after living here for 35 years, I’m trying to catch up a bit, but it’s a long haul.
But isn't it absolutely 'charmant'?
The history? A lot is pretty gruesome, actually.
Portia, what an interesting approach to two countries. I visited both. Italy was my first capitalistic country. I loved it because I came to the country already loving Italian art, architecture, literature, and movies. On a serious note, you are right. Nepotism, instability are serious problems for the country. Holland, with their glorious tolerance, I didn't like at all. AGAIN, AS A TOURIST. Amsterdam celebrated the Queen's birthday. The men drank so much beer(?) they obscenely pissed into the city canals, despite the presence of the public. Waiting for your novella! You offered a very serious idea for the analysis of the future of any country.
Огромное спасибо, Лариса! Most Dutch people aren't happy with that kind of rude behavior, but it's something that happens at Queen's Day (now it's King's Day), it's like beer, and other stronger drinks, make them lose all good sense.
Didn't Amsterdam remind you of Leningrad? It's very different, of course, but czar Piotr took inspiration from there for his city on the water.
Great writing as always, Portia. Can't wait to read the novella!
Thank you, Tim, you're so sweet! I think those little puppies at home have finally let your soft side shine through.
lol i wouldn’t go that far… 😆
I remember seeing a photo of the Zuiderzee when I was a kid, an impossibly long road heading straight toward the horizon. It looked so alien it made a lasting impression on me.
It's an exhilarating drive: blue around you, blue above you. ありがとう, Gianni-san!
So far as I understand neither country is similar to the US system, although .... Are we a galloping capitalist society driven by greed, and an education system that pumps out engineers and scientists and entrepreneurs ? Where a small amount of people with the brain power drive the system. It's definitely complex, where in the east coast old boy networks of Ivy Leaguers go back generations and still provide sinecure via nepotism. Did you know that many of the White House insiders and cabinet people in our new "Populist" government are Ivy League? Geography may be our main source of stability, though we had our Civil War, and the issues from that time are with us still. What's coming remains to be seen. so looking forward to reading your fiction Portia. Don't keep us waiting long.
Of course they're Ivy Leaguers, privileged scumbags. But there's still a warm sparkle of goodness in American society, don't let it fizzle out! Keep carrying the light.
Thanks for your encouragement, Tod, but don't keep your expectations too high. What if it's a damp squib?
I doubt that. When are we going to see it?
It's been a busy month, and this week's too, so maybe this weekend or the next one, at the latest.
Portia, a tale from different sides. Flipped over easy and most nourishing. Gelato melts into holanddaise saucy food with much to many-calories . Yet times do change. The rise of tide is held at bay for now. Vesuvius may not blow its top, but I am not holding my breath. The world changes day by day. Nights by flashlights are the worst for reading your next flood of fleets that once cruised the world with dominating power.
Back to drawing board.
Another note. Do you translate Romanian?
Unfortunately not.
There’s always smoke where fire still burns. Like heart burn, lets you know a problem exists inside.
Richard, you spin a wondrous tale as usual. Thank you, even if I'm a bit worried now about Vesuvius blowing up, and floods. Etna and the other Sicilian volcanoes are still quite active.
Great insight! And looking forward to the short long story!
Grazie, cara, you already know a couple of chapters. Now I'll have to fill in all the rest, wish me luck!
oh wow, really enjoyed this -so very interesting
indeed each country is a land forever to be dicovered yet even if we live there
looking forward the novel (or whatever you'll decide to call it!)
You've been around quite a lot in very different parts of the world, Chen, you know a thing or two about that. Спасибо, милая!
❤️
Interesting perspectives, Portia. I can't wait to start reading your novella!
Aww, David, thanks, you're so kind!
Oh and let's do get started on economic nepotism! Lol. It's gut-wrenching.
We'd never hear the end of it!
I love a solid bit of cultural exegesis, Portia - and here we get two. Dank u vell. <3
But I am mortified to learn that, as a *libera professionista,* Italians view me as a "reckless dimwit, heading down the inevitable road to starvation."
Is it really true? Because if a *posto fisso* is a pipe dream for an Italian, it's even more impossible for a non-Italian in Italy.
On the other hand, my freelance income, while not strictly under my control, approximates a full-time Italian monthly stipendio, so I am overall content with that.
It's still far less than my American income in some years ... but then I'm here, and all in on an Italian quality of life, for which there is absoluately no stateside comparison.
I do feel truly sorry for all the miserably employed Italians who do not change jobs. It's a lot like the US housing market though - once you cash out, you can never get back in again.
You're giving me cravings for strong Dutch kaffee with a plate of kaasebrod.
Hi Monica, you're welcome, thank you for this lovely comment!
Don't be mortified, many people admire, and some may envy your status of libera professionista. But I remember the chorus of "Get yourself a posto fisso!", when I was young. And though I've been going through a rough patch for a couple of years now, I relish being a freelancer.
If you're content with your job and your income, there's really no need to change. Enjoy your life in Florence, while I make a toast to you, with a Dutch coffee and a hefty slice of appeltaart met slagroom.
You did a great job explaining the "posto fisso" concept. My Italian side thanks you :-)
Nice article, Portia.
And I thank you, Michael, you're ever so kind.
You’re welcome, Portia!
I enjoyed this. Thank you. About the concept of 'amoral familism,' I remember reading the book 'Who Prospers?' decades ago, an analysis by a retired U.S. diplomat who had had posts in countries all over the globe. Among other things, he asserted that Central and especially South America would never prosper because of amoral familism, although I don't think he used that term.
My younger daughter has lived in Holland for about six years, and I'm the grandparent of two newish people with dual Dutch and USian citizenship. It's been very interesting getting my daughter's impressions of Dutch culture (and seeing how her impressions change over time), and likewise my son in law's impressions of American culture (if indeed there is such a thing).
Thank you, John. Maybe the author used a different term, but you recognized the concept. 'Amoral familism' and the lack of civic culture have their roots in the fact that almost all 20 Italian regions were governed by foreigners for centuries on end, whom Italians didn't trust, and actually tried to sabotage in every way they could. Unfortunately, these family-centered and passive-aggressive behaviors still exist.
Dutch culture has something in common with the American one: Calvinism, for instance, or the strong entrepreneurial spirit, there's even a Bible belt here! But, to me, the Dutch are more similar to the Germans and Scandinavians.
'American culture' is not monolithic. The population of the USA is ~340M. There are subcultures here that are more populous than Holland and more different from each other than Dutch is from Italian. A proper comparison is not 'American culture vs Dutch culture,' but something more like 'Dutch culture vs Southern California culture' or 'Dutch culture vs Mexican-American culture.'
Right, I remember an American couple from Michigan I'd met in Amsterdam, their daughter went to school with mine. The had lived previously in Montana and then in Poland, and they said that the bigger cultural shock was Montana, much more than Europe. How weird is that?
I grew up on a small farm in rapidly suburbanizing New Jersey, then went to high school in NYC. The change from milking the cow before school to riding the subways of Manhattan at age 13 was a pretty big shock. Then I went to a small liberal arts college in upstate New York, and that was a big (and delightful) change from NYC. Then I lived in a small village in Senegal for 2 years, and that, obviously, was a big change. And then I went to grad school at Purdue University in Indiana.
In some ways Purdue was the biggest culture shock of all of them all. Because unlike the (Black, mostly Muslim) people I lived among in Senegal, who I expected to be different, the 25,000 Purdue undergrads looked pretty much like the kids I had gone to college with. They looked like me. I expected their college experience to be similar in many ways to my own.
But in many ways it wasn't because culturally they were still living in the 1950's. They willingly put themselves in boxes; they followed the rules. "Boys from XZY fraternity only date girls from ABC sorority." "Why?" "Because that's the way it is." "What if a boy doesn't feel like joining a fraternity?" "That is unthinkable." It was as if the 60's had never even happened. It was Twilight Zone.
(We graduate students, thank heavens, were not like that. We were from all over the place (many U.S. states and 6 continents) and didn't care for any of the undergrad silliness.)
Curioser and curioser... In your case, John, all those changes of scenery have produced a very fine, bright, empathetic, artistic, and open-minded gentleman like you.
That is a very kind thing to say. Thank you. (You ain't so bad yourself!)